Ajoy Roy former Associate Director at Intercontinental Consultants and Technocrats (1996-2006)
Reverse engineering is a complicated affair. Yes you can copy the shape and internals. While that is very easily done with simple objects - toys, clothes and some appliances, there are a host of other issues involved when you attempt to copy advanced and complicated objects.
* Advanced machinery uses advanced materials. You can copy the shape, but what about materials. For that you need a whole infrastructure and design capability.
* Advanced machinery required advanced manufacturing. That involves both machine tools and assembly procedures.
Both the above require your own expertise that comes with R&D and practice, and that takes a lot of effort (both monitory and personnel) as well as time. This is some thing no amount of copying will give you.
a) India use Russian tanks. The treads are imported from Russia. Why? Because as yet India has not been able to manufacture steel of that particular quality. Indian tank treads last less than half that of Russian treads.
b) Jet engines (and power turbines) use turbine blades. These are now a days made of special ceramic/steel composite and require advanced manufacturing techniques. Very few companies have mastered the design and manufacture of turbine blades.
So yes we can reverse engineer fighter aircraft, but only when we can manufacture critical components to that standard on our own, but then you will not need to reverse engineer, just design and build your own.
You are thoroughly mistaken.
China does not , has not, reverse engineered anything in the area of jet fighters.
They have agreements with Russia and Ukraine and have legally, legitimately obtained a good amount of technology from them.
And of course, they have done some development on these imported technologies themselves.
Kanthaswamy Balasubramaniam Advisor and Tutor at Staff Selection Commission Combined Graduate Level Exam (2021-present)
This Reverse Engineering Business is HIGHLY EXAGGERATED
Its one thing to reverse engineer a Tubelight or a Toy Helicopter.
Its next to impossible to Reverse Engineer a Su-35 or a Rafale. In fact it would require far more talent to reverse engineer these specs than to learn the concepts and do the entire thing from scratch.
Maybe the Design can be copied but there are too many things in an aircraft and its just impossible to split it open and reverse engineer.
Its the same as taking a Coca Cola Drink- reverse engineering the chemicals and percentage and developing Boca Cola. It would be easier to use your own mix of chemicals and improvise till you get a good taste.
Many Experts refute this Reverse Engineering and one Designer of Lockheed Martin - a Top Aircraft Company says Its Impossible to reverse engineer a Fighter. It would cost you more effort and you would need to be far more skilled than to be able to create your own fighter.
If it was that easy everyone would be doing it. I mean the Israelis are equally talented so they can simply make their own F-22 Raptor. Singapore could make its own F-18. We could make our own Ferraris.
The bottom line is Reverse Engineering is not so easy and is literally impossible for more advanced designs like Engines or Airframes or Wingtips or Control Guidance Systems.
I think China just likes the world to think they reverse engineer when in reality i think they send students, learn the fundamentals, try, try and try and finally succeed.
Sure people say the Chinese J-20 looks same as the Raptor etc etc but frankly there are not too many Aerodynamic designs in the world. All Airplanes look vaguely similar to each other.
One Simple thing - It requires 75000 Parameters to design a Wing for a Fighter. 75,000 Parameters. So can you imagine reverse engineering a Wing????
Even an Architect who copies a design has to get the entire schematics to do the structural engineering. Just give the Architect the design of a building and he simply cannot redesign the building unless he has an unlimited budget. For instance a Brunei Sheikh who wanted a Replica of the White House found his bill would be $ 8.25 Billion which is far more than the White House is valued today
This is because the engineers and architects will have to keep trying various combos and many of them will fail and they have to demolish and start again.
There is something, which is called Intellectual Property Law.
A company does it, faces million dollar law suit.
A sovereign nation does it, faces sanctions from UN.
China can do it, because its a permanent member of the UN security council.
As simple as that!
If I have to search keys in my own house, it takes me a few seconds max. Where I would keep the keys, is based on my experience and instances where I got locked out and when I had no key. So the key has to be hidden but at the same time be accessible.
Does my friend who lives in another house know this? No. Obviously where I keep my keys, is based on my experience and is very unique to me.
The same goes with design. People tend to underestimate the thought that goes behind design.
What prompted the manufacturer to fasten a rivet at Point A, no one from the outside knows. But whoever was in the design team, knows. It could have been a lesson from an expensive mistake in development. It could have costed several hundreds of man hours.
是什么促使制造商将铆钉固定在 A 点上，外界没有人知道。但是设计团队中的任何人都知道。这可能是开发过程中一个代价高昂的错误带来的教训。这可能需要花费几百个工时。
With so many design considerations in place, Intellectual Property Rights as such are barely relevant.
It has little to do with membership in Security Council.
If anything, the members of the SC want a powerful ally at the table. Imagine, they dumped Taiwan to get China on board. The same went with Russia. After the USSR crumbled, Ukraine too could have been added in USSR’s place, but no, Russia got it.
Not being a member is due to lack of power projection and not the other way round. The moment a country can project such power, it will be asked to join the board.
Does an imitation guarantee the same functionality? No.
Thats a weird answer!
What has permanent membership of UN Security Council has to do with breaking IP? Is there something in the charter that says such members have the right to break IP laws?
China too is facing sanctions from the US on various issues, so is Russia.
By your logic, that should not be happening, right?
How they reverse engineered the whole Smartphone business is known to all.
While with India, the contracts are signed with clauses like, no thechnology transfer.
So, is that the reason to claim that their UN Security Council membership allows them to break laws with impunity?
Ha, ha! Seriously !!! Is that even logical?
Considering the deeds of UN member of security council, which ranges from War on Iraq on rumours of WMD, to plundering of Yemen, and dozens of Sanctions on Iran - IP theft is still a non-violent one.
Why else do you think, India is deperate to be part of that club.
Add to that saving terrorists, again and again, Every time India tries to make a case against Pakistan there is one nation that will stop India.
India have to catch-up smartphone manufacturering Is not joke majority of European nations still can't Manufacture whole smartphone ..
No one will transfer the technology , I repeat no one will tell you Trade secrets of trillion dollars industry..
The famous architect Frank Lloyd Wright left behind a finite number of iconic residences before he passed away. Several architects have reported that clients desire Wright-like designs or even imitations of his work.
What they don't understand is that each unique Wright design was tailored to the geography of its building site and the client's particular requirements.
Wright himself was opposed to standard designs, or variations thereof, being imposed on a setting without taking in considerations dictated by the site itself.
The tough part is not design. Design is one of the easiest part to reverse engineer. The toughest part is material. You cannot reverse engineer the material which is used to create the aircraft and it's engine. Material makes the main Difference as wrong material can increase you weight like anything or decrease your strength greatly.
The choice of your material impacts your design as well
You are right. But most of the times people (even engineering bosses) are under the impression that a component can be designed by just copying the dimensions.
Apart from material, manufacturing process plays an important role. Several years are required to establish a manufacturing process.
When I was reading the answer I realized somewhere China would be mentioned. Indeed, it is. China is the best!
Sir why such soft corner for China - “Sure people say the Chinese J-20 looks same as the Raptor etc etc but frankly there are not too many Aerodynamic designs in the world. All Airplanes look vaguely similar to each other.“ 😔
It’s not soft corner, it’s reality. None of us love China but gotta admit they’re doing a damn good job at brewing their own military equipments at home
J-20 looks same as Raptor F22? Either my eyes or your eyes got some problems.
No one says “J20 looks like Raptor"
Sir, HAL is privatized and the process of privatization is in progress.
Make in India and Atmanirbhar Yojana will definitely try if the wealth and resources permit.
There is a very long way to reach atmanirbhar. First there is need rewrite the syllabus of engineering and science courses. Then selecting suitable candidates to pursue these courses is more important step to achieve atmanirbhar.
Some departments like need to be government owned to ensure sovereignty of the nation. Privatization is not always the answer.
HAL will not be privatised it will only cause problems for the iaf and government because government don't pay HAL on time but that will not be possible with a private entity.
China has not invented a single thing after century.
Tik tok 😁
What has India invented?
Not good to make a joke of our own country and humiliate it. India is not a great player in the field of science and maths, but surely is a good player. You know that India has also played its role in various fields.
There is absolutely no intention of making a joke of the country's acheivements here. I too am a fruit of the same tree.
Not good? Boss accept the truth.
Without accepting, nothing can be corrected.
If you are not feeling well, you need to be taken to a doctor. If you sit in bed saying that nothing is happening to me,or even if you go to the doctor and say nothing's wrong with me - I am allright, the Doctor isn't gonna be able to help you.
Your stupid nationalism is eating this country brick by brick. Why should we shut our mouth about the incompetence of our people.
Nationalism?? Speaking truth equals nationalism? If that is so, I am okay with that. Meanwhile, India lags not because of incompetence of our people, but because of incompetence of people like you. You practice engineering - you have knowledge, talent, and I guess a good life with opportunities too. Make something na. Invent and discover something. Why blame community as a whole? Learn to take responsibility instead of blaming the country and countrymen. If you can't, then also count yourself incompetent.
And mind you, I am not a stupid. Your ignorance will eat you out because you don't even have a decency to talk with others.
Have you ever heard about Ramanujan. Please read what he faced in this country full of self proud jokers like you. Was he a stupid?
Why there is no world class university in India?
Why there is no focus on RnD in India?
Why our education and healthcare budget is so low?
Have you ever seen the quality of education in the government schools or in village schools?
What do you want from me? Should I rob Swiss bank and allocate additional budget?
By your logic, I should become the PM, and change the policies, unless I should shut up, and keep chanting Incredible India as you guys do.
We are incompetent because people like you don't want to digest the reality. Agreed, just writing here won't change the country. But, keep shouting Incredible India, while ignoring the flaws and third world mindset of people won't help either. It will harm this country to a greater extent.
First step of solving a problem is accepting there is one!!
“full of self proud jokers like you” - I am an aspirating doctor and I do hardwork in my own way. Should I not take pride in that?
Self proud of being an Indian or being part of some kind of great civilization, that's what I am talking about. Sorry for being demeaning, I just got fed up of such nationalistic comments. Didn't mean to defame or insult you. Let's have a healthy debate.
As you said, earlier, “it's not good to humiliate our country”.But I really think this as a setback. In reality, we should question everything, critucize everything whatever is wrong.
To be 100% frank, I don't understand nationalism. Why should we be proud of a place being born, when we did not even choose it. And I consider nationalism to be the root cause of most of the unnecessary wars, oppression and genocides. Nationalism is racism with sugar coating.
Whatever country we are living in, whatever place we consider as home, everyone should have a right to criticize things(in an ethical way) and call out the wrong doings, incompetence and historical mistakes without being shy.
Before you start telling me the greatness of this country, let me highlight few points.
We were ruled by a country smaller than Maharashtra!!
Most cutting edge tech is being developed in USA, Europe and China.
We can't make Jet engines. We can't make Silicon chips. We can't even produce good batteries. We struggled to make a proper Fighter jet for decades.
We don't have any truly Indian smartphone company. We don't have any world class tech product such as Windows, SAP, Apple etc.
We get all the APIs from China or other countries for most of the Pharma products.
Let me enlighten more:
We have world's most polluted cities, most polluted rivers, still We keep polluting them in the name of stupid religious centiments.
Our metro cities turn into canals with few hours of rainfall.
What do we have our own, sir, if we talk about last 500 years of key Science and tech revolution.
Electric bulb - Indian??
Bicycle - Indian??
Car - Indian??
Satellite - Indian??
Aeroplane - Indian??
The list goes on and on…
What did India invent anything significant in last 500 years. Go and check the list of Europe and USA, you will get the answer.
Till then, Indians can keep chanting Incredible India!! It won't even help in moving a pebble.
Look at the last 30 years. China and India were almost equal, or Indian was a a little ahead in development, in Manufacturing compared to China
Where are we now?
Huwawei was ahead of most US companies in the 5G race. Chinese companies like OnePlus and Xiaomi are literally beating Apple and Samsung by providing 90 percent of their quality at 50–75 percent price. Chinese technology companies are competing with top US companies (MediaTek vs Qualcomn, Alibaba vs Amazon etc), that's not a small feat. China is a technological behemoth. The research happening in top Chinese universities is mind blowing. China has 8 universities in the world's top 50 now. India should try to learn from China.
Yes, if we go by inventions of major things, China clearly lacks there, but it's because all the major things that are common today were invented 30 years ago when China was a poor country. Give them 20 more years and a sizeable chunk of inventions would be comming from China.
【回复】在5G竞赛中，华为遥遥领先于大多数美国公司。一加和小米等中国公司以50%至75%的价格提供了苹果和三星90%的质量，确实打败了它们。中国科技公司正在与美国顶级公司竞争(联发科 vs 高通、阿里巴巴 vs 亚马逊等)，这可不是一个小成就。中国是一个科技巨兽。中国顶尖大学正在进行的研究令人兴奋。中国目前有8所大学跻身世界前50名。印度应该向中国学习。
Huwaei use most of components from Germany,Korea,Japan and Xiaomi do the same as for mediatek it is Taiwanese company.
Who says so? Huawei uses made in China components. In fact even companies like Apple, Samsung, Google, Motorola etc use made in China Processors, RAMs, Memory many times. The toughest thing to make in a phone is a processor. And China makes a significant share of them. Companies like Intel, AMD have Fabrication as well as assembly units in China.
Closest India came to making a chip is single chips made by IIT Bombay and Madras after years of research which are 20 years behind the world.
MediaTek is a Chinese company. They are headquatered in Taiwan. China does this very often, as they face sanctions and negative sentiments they just reroute their goods through Taiwan and Hong Kong. Taiwan is nothing economically without China.
They have. They invent and bring up a lot of things than most western countries. They will continue to do the same in future too, at a bigger pace.
I don’t know what people think when they talk about reverse engineering. An aircraft is a complex and advanced piece of engineering. It had not only the mechanical and electronic components but very complex software algorithms running in real time - which keeps it on trajectory and make sure all the safety requirements, which are not only hard to reverse engineer but it needs decades of research to attain an expertise level. But I think India do have potential to develop these R&D facilities. But it all comes down to one thing - education system.
China can measure, weigh the components, make schematic drawings, etc but to get the metallurgy mixture of alloys just right would make reverse engineering impossible.
If it was easy they could already be making aircraft engines on par with the Russian engines.
All nation surely have better weapons than the known weapon in world. Most of the technologies we use in commercial is 20 to 50 years old. So don’t be worried, the only reason India and China not making better fighter is Politics. For example India could destroy China’s army in 1962 war if used Airforce. To get support of super powers she ignored it and played victim role. Political alliance is more important than weapons. Another example Britain played victim role in WW2 to bring Americans in game.
It is better to improve Tejas rather than copying Rafale.
Further you cannot reverse engineer the software part of it. Where will you get the code? In Adavnced fighter aircrafts, software is as important as hardware.
Just because India is incapable of producing high technology products, many people in India like to think that China must have copied from somewhere. It is the same thing that happens when our friend comes first in the class, we like to think he must surely have taken the help of the class teacher.
Sir, the Chinese have reverse engineered several Russian aircraft(most notable, Mig 21 —J-7)
Does India even have that capability?
Attitude here is always to point fingers at Chinese. Look where they have gone today, where we are now.
30 years back, India was prosperous and ahead of China in development.
It is not something to take pride at. Its like saying that a thief can steal things but I can't, so I am more worthless than a thief!!!
He said reverse engineering and not tech stealing
Modern science and modern industry are products of western civilization!
Modern science and modern industry is the western hegemony of the world for 300 years, China's decline is the most direct reason!
In the past 70 years since the founding of New China, the Chinese have been learning Western science and industrial technology faithfully!
1949 to 1969 to learn the Soviet Union, after 1972 began to learn the West!
China is the only country that combined the western industrial system with the Soviet industrial system!
Indians can laugh at Chinese who only steal technology, copy technology and reverse engineer it!
No matter how much you laugh at them, the Chinese will continue to learn until there is nothing left to learn!
“the Chinese will continue to learn until there is nothing left to learn” Epic, summed it all. And how do I develop that kind of attitude?